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Denyer and the Damning DNA

24 February

The Frankston serial killer murdered Elizabeth Stevens, Deborah Fream and Natalie Russell in a series of random attacks. Joe reenacts the police interrogation and faces his foot phobia head on, and Sandra explains why she doesn't eat "big shrimp".

Joe got his information from:

• Wikipedia
• Forensic Investigators: Paul Denyer (TV episode 2004)

Sandra got her information from:

• Wikipedia
• Article on crime library, by Paul B. Kidd
• An article on now to love, by as told to take 5
• Blog post on crime in my pocket. This is also where the images can be found.

Audio transcript

Midweek Murders contains graphic and explicit content, listener discretion is advised.

Okay, now I am recording.

Which means that it's time to open with a song.

That's usually not in the episode.

Teenagers scare the living shit out of me
They could care less as long as someone'll bleed
So darken your clothes or strike a violent pose
Maybe they'll leave you alone, but not me [Joe sings]

Is that why you always sing in the beginning of the episodes? Because you're trying to start a singing career?

No, you have to be able to sing to make a career out of it. [Laughter]

I didn't want to say it, but... [Laughter] If I was born as a man in the 1800s, I would probably be a composer rather than a player. I've always been more of a big picture kind of gal.

Nobody would have listened to you, because you had a wandering womb. [Laughter]

I said "if I was a man"!

Oh.

That does make things different, doesn't it?

Oh yeah, then you'd have been a genius.

Or a farmer, depending on who birthed me. [Laughter]

Genius or peasant, luck of the draw.

True story though, isn't it?

I mean, I feel like that's modern day Sweden.

[Music]

So it's Wednesday, which means that it's time to talk about crime. You're listening to Midweek Murders, and I'm your host Sandra.

And I'm your host Joe!

This week we're going to talk about the murders of Elizabeth Stevens, Deborah Fream, and Natalie Russell, as well as the attack on Rosza Toth. I got my information from wikipedia, crimelibrary.com by Paul B. Kidd, and an article in now to love by "as told to take five". Hmm. I couldn't get the name, it was just "by as told to take five", I was like: "alright". Blog post on crime in my pocket. That's my sources. Are they reputable? Maybe not.

"Those are my sources and I'm sticking with them". [Laughter]

Ain't that the truth!

I got mine from the wiki wiki wah, and a tv series called forensic investigations: the Paul Denyer episode. Yeah, I actually watched something. It was intriguing.

Okay. In Frankston, a suburb of Melbourne Australia, in February 1993, Donna Vanes' Claude arrived home with her fiance at approximately 11 p.m to a horrific scene. Trigger warning - animal cruelty. Someone had murdered her cats, and used their blood to write a message on the wall stating: "Donna - you're dead". Understandably freaked out, Donna didn't want to stay another night in her flat and moved in with her sister Tricia. Tricia's neighbor, Denyer, told Donna that she: "was safe now", and that Denyer would personally take care of the person who was responsible for the break-in if the police ever found out who it was.

Spooky.

Red flags! In June the same year, Elizabeth Stevens was found murdered in a park, a short drive away from Frankston. She had been reported missing the day before by her aunt and uncle, who she was staying with whilst studying at the nearby TAFE Frankston. Which, I don't know if it's a University, but it's like a kind of university I think?

Yeah. I don't know what their education system is in Australia, it's probably like a college or something.

Probably, yeah. Police made an effort in trying to find her killer by interviewing the bus driver and passengers on her last known bus drive, as well as looking into every library in the area, and knocking on doors of the residents, but nobody could tell them anything.

So Elizabeth Stevens, the first victim, they couldn't set up the crime scene immediately because of the poor weather. So they had to do it the next day, and that's why there was no forensic evidence found, it all been washed away by the poor weather. They did find that there were a couple of small tree branches that had been placed over her body. The reason for this I don't understand, because there wasn't enough foliage to conceal her body. Her body was still visible, but he'd now given himself an MO to link him to the other murders. On the slightly less macabre side, which I feel like is worth mentioning, they did find that all of her lower body clothing was intact. So at least we're not looking at an opportunist rapist. I say "at least" like we're not covering the case of a serial murderer.

This is a comedy podcast, guys! [Laughter]

So when they looked at the body post mortem, they found that the cause of death was strangulation. She was also stabbed multiple times and had her throat slashed, but those both occurred after she had died. They know that she was strangled because of a thing called petechial hemorrhages, little pin prick hemorrhages in their eyes. There were minor injuries to her body that indicated that she was moved post-mortem, so after she had died, nearby to where she was found. They found her school bag with lots of her school books that had her name in them, so they were able to identify her by that, and then obviously did the DNA and forensics testing to confirm that afterwards.

Okay. On the 8th of July, Rosza Toth, a 41 year old bank clerk, had finished work and was heading home when she was accosted by a person who tried to drag her into a nearby nature reserve. She fought for her life, biting the assailant's fingers down to the bone, and she eventually managed to flee and successfully flagged down a passing car. She immediately called the police, and the police came to the crime scene within minutes but couldn't find any trace of the attacker. And here I have a question: if you bite someone that hard, wouldn't you have DNA in your teeth?

Only if you've got skin. If it was a completely clean bite, then probably not.

That's true.

Obviously, something that strong is gonna draw blood, but that's not gonna last very long in your mouth. So unless she's got some form of tissue in her teeth, this is probably not gonna give any kind of useful evidence. But it's gonna cause a whole world of pain, so bite your assailant anyway.

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Later on the same day, 22 year old Debbie Fream went missing when she drove to her local shop to buy some milk. Four days after she went missing, her body was found by a farmer in one of his paddocks. The attack on Rosza, which had first been considered as a robbery gone wrong, was now suspected to be linked to the murders of Elizabeth and Debbie. The police realized that there was a perpetrator on the loose in Frankston attacking women at random. And here they did a weird thing, and they put up like a phone line for women in Frankston, and stuff like that, and told them to stay at home. You can't protect women by telling them to stay home. People were like: "oh, the police did such a great job by telling women to stay at home", I was like: "no".

In the forensic investigation program they did some interviews with like general citizens. People were like: "yeah, we don't feel safe walking down the street". And then there was one bloke who was like: "yeah, we go clubbing quite a lot, but it's got really bad now because there's no women there". I think you might have missed the point of why they're questioning you, my friend. "Yeah, I used to go clubbing a lot, but I've stopped now because there's no people to creep on". [Laughter] So like you said, Deborah went to the shop to get some milk. She was a new mother, so the police's first thought was that perhaps she was experiencing some kind of postpartum depression, and might have run away from home or done something to herself because of that. But when they spoke to her husband, and friends and family, she was reportedly overjoyed about having a baby and she was really enjoying life. So they pretty quickly ruled out the postpartum theory.

Yeah. Which is a hormonal thing.

Yeah, it's completely normal. I think a lot of women go through postpartum, not uncommon at all. When they found her body four days after she was reported missing, she was found with very similar injuries to that of Elizabeth Stevens. So she was stabbed, her throat was slashed, and she had the crisscross markings on her chest. They also managed to eventually find her car, and they noted pretty quickly that there was a v-shaped dent on the front of her car that passed from the bonnet, or the hood, all the way down the radiator grille and onto the number plate, or the license plate. So they were pretty confident that that vehicle had been crashed into some kind of vertical object, whether that be a sign post or a wall, the vehicle had collided with something to cause that dent. When they looked a little bit closer at it, they found that the number plate had a strange orange debris on it. So they tested that forensically...

Oh! Was it Trump? Or cheetos? Just spitballing here. [Laughter]

It wasn't Trump or cheetos. So they looked at that with a technique that lets you know the elemental composition of what you're looking at, and found that it was brick. So the car had crashed into a brick wall, and most likely the corner of a brick wall, which is why it was a v-shape rather than flat crumple across the whole of the bonnet slash hood. There was eyewitness reports to say that a car matching the description of Debbie's car was seen driving erratically around the area, and flashing their high beams. There was nothing at the scene, where they recovered Debbie's body, forensically to be able to link it to a suspect. Again the body was covered with small tree branches. So again, MO linking back to Elizabeth. Again, like Elizabeth, the underwear was intact. So we know that this wasn't a sexually motivated attack, and during the post-mortem there were no vaginal injuries. So they did the whole forensic spiel on the car, and found that the driver's seat was all the way back. Now Debbie was not the tallest person in the world, so this indicated to the officers investigating that somebody of a taller stature had driven the car after Debbie had. They also found a blade of grass that was covered in blood on the passenger seat.

One?!

Yeah.

That's fucking crazy.

Yeah, they found one blade of grass. They also found blood on the driver's seat, and this was a match to Debbie. So they know that she was injured in the car, and unfortunately it wasn't a link to the suspect. But at least it gives that kind of time frame, as to what was happening and when it was happening.

On the afternoon of the 30th of July, 17 year old Natalie Russell was on her way back home from John Paul college, on her bike, when she was attacked and murdered. Her body was discovered a mere eight hours later in some bushes beside the bike track. But this time the police managed to find a clue as to whom the murder was. I just wrote Joe here, because there were...

That's me! [Laughter]

Yeah. Because there was evidence by Natalie Russell.

Yes there was.

And what was it?

Well it's interesting that you should mention that, because I made absolutely no notes. Jk, I made loads. [Laughter]

I was like: "oh no", because I wrote my notes a week ago and I can't fucking remember what it was! [Laughter]

Sorry, I'm tickled by my own joke. So the bike path that you mentioned, was a regular shortcut that a lot of people that went to the same school as Natalie took to get from school to their houses. Otherwise they would have had to walk a long way through two golf courses... there was a golf course on either side of the pathway.

Oh my god, is Trump there as well?

Probably. Probably owns them. That pathway was lined by two wire fences, and the wire fence the police found had three holes cut into it. In one of those holes, near where the body was found, they saw that there were bloody handprints on the stanchion that holds the fence up.

Okay.

So that could have belonged to either Natalie or the suspect, because they didn't know who it was at the time. Near the head of Natalie, they also found two thin leather straps that the scene of crime officer thought would belong to some kind of neck bound device. Whether that be like binoculars, or a pouch to keep your money in, or whatever, but something that had a leather strap that would connect it around your neck and dangle in front of you. These leather straps will also stained with blood. They also found a piece of skin. Very interesting. I noted down the dimensions, it's 2.7 by 0.5 centimeters. So a long, thin, stretch of skin. Delicious. When they examined this, they saw that it had ridges on it, which indicates that it came from a hand. The only place that you have ridges on your skin is on your fingers.

Really?

Ridges being one of the things that they look for in fingerprint identification.

Oh. I thought that the bottom of your feet also had ridges.

Hold on, I've got bare feet, let me have a look. Yeah, it does. But if you've got 2.7 centimeter long toes, you're a freak.

Okay. [Laughter] Good to know.

Yeah. So when they examined the body of Natalie, they saw quite quickly that there was no correlating wound on her hands that would attribute the piece of skin that they found. So already, they know that that piece of skin belongs to their suspect. So they've got DNA that links their suspect to the crime scene of Natalie Russell's murder.

Oh!

Yeah, yeah. I think that is all I have on Natalie Russell.

There was a license plate clue?

Yes there was. So when Natalie went missing, there was a postal worker that was covering a route that also coincided with the start of the path that she had disappeared on, or that she was found near. As that postal worker was doing their deliveries, they noticed a yellow Toyota parked opposite the track where Natalie had disappeared. And I think they were on some kind of motorized scooter, or some kind of motorized device that wasn't a car, because they were on the path.

A "motorized scooter" is such an English way...

How would you describe it?

I don't know, a motorbike?

She wasn't on a motorbike.

I don't mean Natalie, I mean the postal worker.

Yeah the postal... No, the postal worker wasn't on a motorbike. She must have been on like a low-powered mobility scooter, or like something like that, to be able to be on the path. Otherwise she would have had to have been on the road. So it was like a motorized scooter, but I don't know what her exact vehicle was, so I said motorized scooter. [Laughter]

Okay.

It might have been a bicycle, with the little electric engine that helps them go uphill.

Okay.

I don't know. I just don't know! [Laughter] She was in some kind of motorized assistant vehicle, that was low power enough to be on the path, but not high power enough to be on the road.

How do we know that it's not a bike?

I don't know! It wasn't a bike. For some reason, there was some kind of motor involved. [Laughter]

Okay. I don't know why I'm getting so...

Yeah! Why are you sticking on this point? This isn't even an important point. [Laughter]

It isn't!

Anyway. She scooted past a yellow Toyota that was parked opposite the track where Natalie was found. As she scooted past, electrically or manpowered - remains to be determined, she noticed that the car didn't have any number plates, either on the back or the front.

Oh! I thought there was a number plate!

Bear with. So there were no license plates on the car where you would expect license plates to be.

Oh my god, I didn't know that!

And when she scooted past, power undetermined, she noticed the person in the driver's seat slouched down in the seat, as if to try and be unobserved.

Definitely suspicious.

Yeah, exactly. So she was like: "Mm".

"Hold on one Australia minute!".

"This jingles my bells". I don't know why she's southern American rather than Australian. It's like the buffalo all over again.

"I don't know why the buffalo is Scottish!".

"Put a shrimp on the barbie, this guy's suspicious!" [Laughter]

That's the only thing we know that is Australian, although I have Australian friends. I'm sorry Hayle! [Laughter]

Christmas in the sunshine, what is this world?

She moved to England thinking that she would be fine with like a windbreaker, and some fleece leggings. [Laughter]

Oh Hayle, you are gonna be freezing your tits off in this weather.

And she's from Queensland, so it's fucking warm. I was like: "should I go visit you?", she's like: "no, you're gonna boil". Which is probably a thing that she says to keep me from visiting. No, we were good friends. She probably means in the best way... I'm hoping. Hayle, if you're there... [Laughter]

"I still want to be your friend! I love shrimp barbecued! I love Fosters, it's the best!"

I love shrimp. Although, I don't...

Or Fosters, it's piss water.

No. I don't love Fosters, obviously. But I do love shrimp, but I don't like the big ones because they're really bad for the enviornment. [Laughter]

Also, fun fact about Fosters. Australian company, brewed in the UK.

I don't nobody who drinks Fosters in the UK!

Loads of people drink Fosters in the UK.

Oh. Maybe I'm just not that peasant. [Laughter]

Yeah, we're Irish hop house kind of people. Anyway, the postal worker obviously flagged that this was suspicious. Very astute. So as soon as the postal worker got to a house where they knew someone was in, they called the police.

That's incredible.

Yeah. So good job you, postal worker. The police came out. The person in the car had disappeared, but the car was still there. They also noted that there were no obvious license plates on the car, however, they did notice that there was a temporary license plate registration label in the windscreen. So they took a note of this, wrote it down, knocked on a couple of the local doors, nobody had any more information about the vehicle. So they took as much detail as they could and left the scene. Once Natalie's body was recovered, those two junior officers came forward and said: "look, we were called out to this location yesterday", the day before Natalie was found, "found this strange vehicle. Do you want these details? Run these details". So they ran the details, and found that the vehicle was registered to a Denyer. Sometime between Debbie's body being discovered and Natalie's body being discovered, the police engaged with a criminal profiler. So the profiler looked through all of the case history, and all of the information available to them. They found that most serial killers were between the age of 18 and 24, so that was the age range that they were looking for. Most serial killers lead a very rich fantasy life, so they're quite often involved with fantasizing about their next victim, or things that they can do to their victims, all of that kind of morbid stuff. And because of that, the profiler theorized that this person was likely unemployed. Because of the amount of time that they would spend fantasizing about their victims, they wouldn't be able to hold down a regular job. So either they were doing part-time menial work that didn't involve much thought, or they were unemployed.

And speaking of which... or did you have more?

I have one more point, but are you going to talk about how you would also fit the profile of serial killer? [Laughter]

That is true.

And the last point was that they were likely going to be a local resident. So the profiler thought that given that they knew the back road that Natalie took, and that both Elizabeth and Debbie were found very close together, that the suspect was likely a local. So they painted a picture that gave the police a little bit more help in being able to identify who the suspect might be.

So Denyer had tried to become a police officer, had a history of animal cruelty, and assaulted a fellow student at school. Denyer was also fired from a job at a supermarket for deliberately trying to knock a woman and a child over with a row of shopping carts.

Oh we all do that. Get frustrated in Waitrose, you're like: "oh, why is this person in here? They're clearly not upper class. Oh, look at the shoes they're wearing. Throw a trolley at them!".

The police went to Denyer's home, and left a card requesting to be contacted as soon as the residents returned home. Sharon Johnson, Denyer's girlfriend, got in touch with them, and they told her that it was a routine inquiry, and that they were interviewing everyone in the district. To keep suspicions low, I guess.

Well also, it wasn't that much of a stretch. They were investigating all of the local area.

So when they arrived at the home, Denyer answered the door and commented that there were a lot of police there for a routine inquiry, but cheerily let them in. The detectives noticed that Denyer's hands were cut in several places. Suspicious. Denyer was taken in, and then interrogated for hours.

Yeah. So they asked Denyer their age, and they confirmed that they were 21, and if you remember the profiler said that they would be between 18 and 24. They also asked Denyer if they were employed, unemployed, between jobs, and they replied that they were unemployed. Again, a tick for the profiler. Like you said, the police officers noted that Denyer had cuts and abrasions on their hands. When this was questioned by the investigating officer, Denyer had excuses for all of their injuries. They claimed it was from the engine fan, while they were plunging into the depths of automotive enginery!

Was it a motorized scooter? No, I'm just kidding.

No, it was a combustion engine powering a vehicle! The police also, while Denyer was in custody, investigated the house and the car, and seized a number of knives and tools from the home. And also, a pair of binoculars with no leather strap! They were like: "this is dinging my ding-a-ling, ding ding ding".

Ding, ding, ding.

Ding, ding, ding. So when they questioned Denyer a little bit deeper about their movements regarding the days that Elizabeth Stevens, Deborah Fream, and Natalie Russell all went missing, they had answers for every single hour of each of those three days. Now, to an investigating officer that in itself is suspicious. If you're able to recount every single hour of a day that happened two weeks ago, you've covered your tracks too thoroughly, and then you become suspicious. So that raised a flag for the investigating officers, and they were like: "okay, this is a bit weird. We need to go a bit deeper". So then they asked for DNA samples. Now at this stage, I really enjoyed the investigating officer's technique. So Denyer's sitting across the desk, there's two police officers interviewing. They explain that they need the DNA samples, because they've got DNA from the crime scene, and they need to be able to either link or rule out Denyer.

So in Denyer's mind they're thinking: "Shit. I did this. They've got my DNA from the crime scene, and now they need to link it to me, and the only way they can do that is through a blood sample or a DNA swab. I'm fucked"

So at this stage the investigating officer says: "do you want a coffee?"

And Denyer's like: "yeah, I could go for a coffee, yeah"

"oh, how'd you take your coffee bruv?"

Denyer was like: "white with two"

Investigating officer's like: "yeah, I could do that. No worries, I'll get your coffee. I'll be back in five minutes"

He leaves the room.

Now, Denyer is left with the non-senior investigating officer, knowing that they're fucked. Queue confession.

So while the senior investigating officer's out brewing this delicious cup of steamy Joe, that's what I like to call myself, Denyer is in there shitting bricks. "They've got me, they fucking know. I've murdered a bunch of people"

... hold on, I don't know why I'm doing it in cockney.

"I've murdered a bunch of people, I'm absolutely fucked. They've got everything they need to prosecute me, I might as well come clean. I'm just gonna do it. There's no way that I'm gonna get shrimp on the barbie anytime soon. The last Fosters I had was last night. I really fucking enjoyed it, but it's gonna be the last one I have, because I'm gonna spend the rest of my life in bars. And not the good kind of bars, the bars that hold you in place"

Yep.

So Denyer confessed everything, and then when the senior guy came back in with his lovely cup of steamy joe... hello ladies... Denyer was like: "yeah, I've confessed". And once he had confessed, I've got a couple of quotes from the video of their interview that just sums up Denyer's psychological position. So when they were talking about Elizabeth, the investigating officer asked why they did it, to which they replied: "I just had the feeling, I just wanted to kill". They moved on to Debbie, and asked why they chose Debbie at that time, and they said they: "just got that go-feeling". And then when they got to questioning about Natalie, Denyer said: "I've always wanted to kill". The timing behind it was because: "the levels were boiling up". And then a little bit later in the interview process, they said: "I've been stalking women for a few years, just waiting for that opportunity, waiting for the sign".

Which is extremely creepy.

Mhmm.

So Denyer confirmed that the attacks and murders had been completely random, and pleaded guilty to three murders and one abduction at the trial. And was sentenced on the 20th of December 1993, to three consecutive sentences of life imprisonment with no parole period. After an appeal though, Denyer was granted a fixed no perole period of 30 years, until 2023. So that's two years from now. So Debbie Fream's son told the media that: "when Denyer applies for parole, I'll be at the hearing to remind the authorities about the life sentence given to a 12 day old baby and his dear mother", and that was really fucking sad to read.

Fuck you, Denyer.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's the case! What am I gonna do next week? Probably edit, and then feel bad. [Laughter]

Or... Feel bad and then edit?

Maybe that one. Only time will tell. Okay. So thank you so much for listening to Midweek Murders, we'll schnee...

We'll schnee you schnext schneek.

Schni schna schnappi, kleine krokodil.

Kleine krokodil.

Okay, bye-bye!

Bye.

[Music]

Topics

• Paula Denyer
• Elizabeth Stevens
• Deborah Fream
• Natalie Russell
• The Frankston serial killer
• The Frankston murders
• Australian serial killers