13

The Shed, the Saw and the Stepbrother

30 September

The case of Becky Watts, who was murdered by her stepbrother Nathan Matthews and his girlfriend Shauna Hoare, is what we're discussing this episode. Joe talks about hoarding and Sandra is right for once.

The image is from the BBC and can be found here.

Joe got his information from:

• An article from the Bristol Post, written by Laura Churchill
• Article from Daily Mail, written by Thomas Burrows and Alex Matthews
• The Murder of Becky Watts - Police Tapes, can be viewed on YouTube here

Sandra also watched The Murder of Becky Watts - Police Tapes, and got the rest of her information from:

• Wikipedia
• An article from The Guardian written by Steven Morris
• Case 99: Becky Watts. From Casefile: True Crime Podcast, researched and written by Victoria Dieffenbacher

Audio transcript

Midweek Murders contains graphic and explicit content, listener discretion is advised.

Bon bonjour bon bon bonjour bonjour bonjour bonjour bon bon bonjour. All right, hello, jesus.

Are you on your new headset?

Yes, can't you tell?

Well, I would say that it's definitely... good. [Laughter]

I waited that long for good? [Laughter]

Hashtag disappointed.

[Music]

Should we start?

Probably, we've been going on for a while. [Laughter] Someone started the topic of books and I was like "I've read a book blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah".

I'm probably gonna...

blah blah blah!

...cut all of that because it spoils the ending of the book.

Yeah.

Yeah, all right.

Also, I thought you were gonna cut out my impression of americans introducing the show, and then Jo came into my room the other day and she was like: "nice american accent by the way".

I didn't cut that.

You should do this introduction with your best english accent.

I can only do that when I'm drunk.

You are drunk.

Otherwise I get too self-conscious.

Do it in whatever accent you feel comfortable, so long as it's not swedish.

I did it in a british accent once when I said like...

You didn't because there's no such thing as a british accent.

An english accent okay. I did it in... I talked about our website, and then I talked about it in an english accent, and it was quite good. And you're never going to hear it but it was quite good.

Hello mates, this is Midweek Murders. That means it's time to talk about crime. I'm your host Sandra.

I would say it's probably a six out of ten. My english accent, your was a two.

My english accent is natural. If it's only a two...

Then what the hell are we speaking?

We need to start assessing your rating system.

No, your impression of one. Your impression of me doing an impression of one.

So, okay. It is... Now I'm self-cautious about it [laughter]. It's wednesday which means that it's time to talk about crime. You're listening to Midweek Murders. I'm your host sandra...That's you. It's you.

Oh and I'm also your host? Co-host? Subject? Guest? Sir? Peasant? I'm your peasant, Joe! [Laughter]

Are we gonna have to do it again or should we just use that one?

Just use it. It's my least favorite part about the whole production it's this fucking introduction.

I usually tell you to do it and then you do it very ridiculously, but then I keep that in.

But that's why it's funny. I could do a different...

It's Wednesday my dudes!

I could do a different accent every time we do it and the listeners be like: "where are we? Are we in Australia? Are we in Ireland? Are we in Wales? Are we in Nigeria?".

What accent do you want to do this time?

I'll do it in welsh. Hello! You're listening to Midweek Murders. And that means it's time to talk about crime. I'm your host Joe, and this is your co-host...

Sandra!

Sandra.

I was gonna say that it was quite good until you said Sandra.

Yeah, I was imitating you but through through a welsh accent. [Laughter]

This week we're going to talk about the murder of Becky Watts. I got my information from wikipedia, Casefile: True Crime Podcast, a Guardian article by Steven Morris and The Murder of Becky Watts - The Police Tapes. It was just Police Tapes, sorry.

I watched that as well. Did you did you watch it or did you just read the transcripts?

No, I watched it.

Yeah, I watched it too.

It's a small world.

I did my research over a week ago, so I'll be fucked if I can remember where I read my sources from. But you can find them all on our website midweekmurders.netlify.app [Laughter]

Wow, wonderful.

Other websites are available.

No, they're not.

But not for our podcast. [Laughter]

There's only one true source of true crime...

And his name is Bane.

I thought you were gonna say "his name is Sauron" for some reason, I don't know why. You know that we talk about Harry Potter almost every episode?

That's because it's the best non-fiction story that ever existed.

Are you excited about the new game?

Yeah, but it does mean that I'll have to purchase a PS5 which are like 500 pounds.

Are they only releasing it on PS5, not...

I think so but it, yeah, means that I would get to play the Witcher 3 in their spunked up new high definition version.

I really want it to be on computer because...

I think they are releasing it on PC as well.

Oh! Wait, the Witcher or the Harry Potter game?

Harry Potter.

Thank god for that.

I think it's gonna be PC but I'm not sure Niklas' laptop will be able to cope with it.

Maybe now that he operated on it.

Thermal paste or not. But I think it's only going to be PC, Xbox whatever the new one is, and PS5.

Nobody cares about the new Xbox.

No they do not.

Okay, so...

We've done sources, start with the crime. Let's do this shit, it's getting late. I've got a bedtime.

I didn't talk about a book for 40 minutes.

Hey, shut your face.

So Becky Watts was a 16 year old girl who lived with her father and her stepmother in Bristol. She had been badly bullied for years, and thus was painfully shy with strangers. But in 2015 she was a lot happier though, having found a close-knit friend group with whom she would often hang out with, and a boyfriend who adored her. She had a very good relationship with her stepmother Anji, who had supported Becky through her traumatic school years, and who treated Becky as if she were her own daughter. Anji had a son, Nathan Matthews and Nathan's girlfriend Shauna Hoare worked as Anji's primary caretaker as Anji suffered from multiple sclerosis, and could no longer move about freely in her home. And I would just like to get it out of the way, but Hoare is a very unfortunate last name.

For the benefit of our listeners, it is spelled H-o-a-r-e.

Yes. I just felt like that needed to be said.

Yeah, I was reading it and I was like: "is it pronounced Hoare? Is it?" and then watched the Police Tapes and they were like: "I'm Shauna Hoare".

Okay. On the morning of the 19th of February 2015, Becky gets back home from having spent the night at a friend's house. Anji comes to the door to let her in as Becky's house key didn't work. Anji leaves the house at 11.15 to go to a doctor's appointment. When she leaves Becky, Nathan and Shauna are still in the house. Later that day Becky's boyfriend goes to her house to see if Becky is there, because she hadn't been responding to his messages, which was very out of character especially because they had made plans and she...

They were in love.

She didn't call him to say that she was doing something else or anything, so he went to the house...

Bitch! She's socially anxious, she ain't gonna call you.

No, that's you.

Take it from me bro. [Laughter]

At first, Becky's family assumed that she must have gone to another friend's house, as she didn't have school the next day. I think it was some kind of...

Can I just interject?

Yeah.

I don't know if it's the alcohol, but you sound a bit like Gollum when you say friendsies. Because it's just friends. Not friendses. It's like: "she went to her friendsies house". [imitates Gollum]

I don't mean to correct your english, because I know it's usually on point, but I'm really struggling not to laugh every time you say friends. Because all I can picture is you eating a raw fish out of a river.

My sweet, my... [imitates Gollum]

No don't do it, it's scary. [Laughter]

My precious friendsieses. Get on with your friendsieses. [Laughter]

At first, Becky's family assumed that she must have gone to another friend's house...

Sorry, I should have muted my microphone. I knew you were gonna do that. You're doing great. [Laughter]

As she didn't have school the next day. And there I almost put like, it was a school holiday, but then I didn't know if that was the correct term.

Could have just been a weekend.

No, it was like a school holiday.

Oh, then yeah school holiday is fine.

Her laptop and phone wasn't in the house, and Nathan and Shauna said that they had heard Becky leave the house that morning, but hadn't spoken to, or seen her. They left messages and called her, but they trusted becky to go out, as they knew all of her friends well. They assumed that she would get in touch with them soon. The day after, on the 20th of February, Anji called Becky's father Darren at work and asked him to come home, as Becky's friends and boyfriend had all showed up at their house, as she hadn't been responding to messages. Darren gets home and speaks to her friends and to the neighbors, after which he decides to report Becky missing to the police. He also looks at her facebook to see if she had posted anything that could help them figure out where she was, but Becky hadn't posted anything. Darren also asks Nathan...

friendsies... Asks Nathan to help write up a post...

Sorry, I'd muted my microphone and then I just had to put it back on to laugh at the friendsieses.

You don't have to mute it anymore because I can't hear your background noises, because you've got a new headset.

I feel like it would just cut out the unnecessary editing of my burps. You might have to do that bit again.

Darren also asks Nathan to help write up a post on facebook, that showed a photo of her and a pleading message to help them find Becky. Because they were a bit scared that the police didn't take them seriously because a lot of teenagers go missing. On the 23rd of February, Darren and Becky's grandmother Pat makes a televised press appeal. They beg anyone that has information about Becky to come forward, and they also speak directly to Becky, assuring her that she isn't in any trouble and that they just want to know that she's okay. On the 25th, the police removed the house's residences and do a search of the family home. Becky's family and friends organized a search of the area. On the 28th the police arrest two people in connection of Becky's disappearance, and five days later the police announced to the press that they had found body parts belonging to Becky. The same two people are arrested again on suspicion of murder. The people arrested are Nathan and Shauna, Becky's stepbrother and his girlfriend. Turns out that when police searched the home, not the first time but later on I guess? I couldn't get a proper date on that, did you have a date on when they found the blood?

No.

Okay. Turns out when the police searched the home, probably not the first time, they had found...

Sorry, it must have been the first time, because it was the blood on the door jam?

Yeah.

And that would have been when the forensics officers went in.

Yeah, I think they went in several times. But it could have been the first time. They had found blood on the doorframe of Becky's room, and a fingerprint in the blood. And the fingerprint turned out to be a match for Nathan's fingerprints. The police had tried interviewing Nathan and Shauna previously, but they had left to go visit Shauna's mother, even though the mother and daughter were estranged. At a visit to the couple's house the police had noticed a state of disorder and chaos in the house, as Nathan was a hoarder. But the bathtub had been spotless.

It's worth pointing out here, that when I first read this, and it was just like a summary of the details of what went on and you think "okay, he's a hoarder". I consider myself a hoarder, I can still see my carpet and can access all of the rooms that I need access to. When we speak of Nathan and Shauna's house, it's in such a state of disarray that there were rooms that the forensic officers did not know existed, because of the level of hoarding that was going on. You had to move things out of the way to be able to get to certain places. Every surface was covered, the floor was completely non-visible, everything was stacked up against the walls to the ceiling. And then they got into the bathroom, and even the bathroom itself was completely full to the ceiling of stuff, apart from the bath which was absolutely spotless. Like OCD level clean.

Yeah. Another thing to note here, is that Nathan had been part of some kind of military civilian thing, I think.

I can't back you up on that. I don't know.

But it's called something. Like, but he had been a part of it, and he had learned how to clean things properly through that. Not that he ever...

Territorial army?

Maybe. I don't remember, like the...

Fair, you've had two bottles of wine.

That's not even true. I saw the videotapes, like the thing that we both saw I think, of the house...

Yeah, it was a fucking mess.

And I would never be able to live like that, never ever. It was anxiety inducing.

Neither would I. Like, I keep pretty bottles of whiskey and every single book I've ever read, but even to me that house was a mess.

It was horrible.

Any kind of anything that has entered that house has not left. Junk mail, boxes, food containers, newspapers - anything you can imagine that has entered that household, will have never left. Apart from the bath, which was sparkly clean. I'd put myself in that bath if there hadn't been a murdered body in it.

But also, you wouldn't step a foot in that house, because we both have OCD problems...

Oh no, yeah, but I mean if someone were reselling that bath I'd be like: "well that's sparkly clean, I'll have it". [Laughter] Whereas if someone was putting that house up for sale, I'd be like "I don't know what kind of cockroaches are in all of these cardboard boxes".

Oh it was so horrible.

It was. It was really bad. These are the kind of people that you see on the reality tv shows where they've got clinical OCD and can't dispose of anything, so they get an expert in to help them.

And for me, I get anxiety just if there's too much stuff accumulating in any place.

I get anxiety throwing things away. So, I got the lego diagon alley and I've still got the box of the lego sitting in front of my clothing rack. Because part of me doesn't want to throw it away, part of me is thinking like: "well what happens when you move? You'll need to put it all in bags, and where are you going to put the bags? Well the best place to put the bags is in the box. So keep the box". But I know the box is useless, because I can put the bags in another box. But it's the box. So I completely...

Throw it away.

No, I will try.

"No, I, I, I will try".

I honestly think I have some kind of problem, and we'll just leave that at that and we'll generalize it as some kind of problem. But I can completely associate with hoarders.

Yeah, I know.

But the state of their house, I think, is the next level.

Yeah.

To be fair, I've seen similar houses and it's people that clinically suffer with severe OCD. Like the kind of turning the light switches off and on like 14 times to make sure that you've turned it off kind of thing, and locking their door multiple times to make sure that it's locked. I get that it can be a neurosis, and I think to some extent we both suffer from that to different degrees and in different...

To be fair I do both of those things that you just said, more or less.

Yeah, you have the problem of worrying about ovens and locked doors and hobs and things like that. I think is fair to say?

Yes.

Whereas I have the hoarder side of things, where I will keep non-sentimental things that mean nothing to me. They will stay until I get into a mood where I'm like: "right, let's just throw everything away". This house, that Nathan and Shauna was living in, was like a combination of the worst aspects of both of us.

But to be fair, I'm not sure that any of them have the problems that we have. I'm not sure it's a psychological thing.

No, no. We're unique. [Laughter] I think it must be psychological to the extent of the mess that they had. I don't think that just comes down to like laziness of not taking the bins out, or like a distraction from something else. I think there's got to be an underlining condition of some kind of obsessive-compulsive disorder that makes one of them... And we don't know which one, because it was never investigated, but one of them must have some kind of disorder that makes it difficult for them to dispose of things, to a level that an OCD hoarder would put emphasis on something. Like the shows that I've watched, where they've helped a hoarder dispose of things, they would have like newspapers from the 1970s, and they wouldn't want to throw that away in case there was an article in there that related to something that might be happening nowadays. And I think that's the only reason that you can keep a newspaper for that long, is that you've got that obsessive compulsive irrationality, to think that it might hold something relevant to you in the present day. And I think that's the only way that you can get to the level of hoarding that we've seen in that house, is to have that kind of serious neurological disorder.

I'm not sure about that. They had so much trash around, so much food around that just went bad and stuff like that. I'm not sure that that's a neurological disorder, but it might be.

I mean, I get what...

It doesn't matter. [Laughter]

It doesn't matter, but this is the kind of thing that I find interesting, so fuck you. [Laughter] Sorry, I amused myself. You're like: "oh! True crime!". I'm like: "oh! OCD! Oh!". I agree with you, in that from the forensics body cams that we saw, it did look mainly like absolute rubbish. It was bags of things... They went into the kitchen and it was like empty tins of whatever. But when you're suffering from that degree of OCD, everything has a significance. And what that significance is...

Even dirty cups?

Yes! And even the empty tins of baked beans, everything to the broken mind of someone that has that level of OCD has a level of significance. I don't want to keep harping on about it, but when you watch these programs where people go in and try to help clear the clutter of someone that is on this level, that person really struggles to let go of anything. I'm almost 100% convinced that either Nathan or Shauna, and I think it more likely to be Nathan having watched the videos, would have had that level of obsessive compulsive hoarding where he would assign a value to even rubbish. Nothing that could possibly mean anything to anyone, but maybe in his mind this container that had a chicken jalfrezi that we bought on the 15th of August was when Shauna said that she loved me, and therefore I'm holding on to this because it's a reminder of that time that she showed me her affection. It has to be that degree of OCD.

I don't think it does. I understand what you're saying, but I think that if you're on one level of, I would say probably depression, you just stop caring about shit. So you stop cleaning, you stop all of those kind of shit. I've read a lot about... Or I haven't read a lot about it, but I have read some about it, of Shauna and Nathan's relationship, and they were mostly just in the bed at all times because they didn't...

Yeah they were.

No. They didn't have a free surface in the home, because he would take things back to their house to fix them and then resell them. He wanted not to be poor, kind of. But I'm not sure. I think that you are projecting your own feelings on this. Okay...

Shut your mouth.

I would say...

I like material things okay? Buy me things.

But I would also say that one thing that they did keep that was detrimental for them, was that they kept the receipts for gloves, face masks, and a circular saw.

Yes!

That the police found on their search of the home.

I just want to put out another point, and I know you've disregarded me as projecting my own feelings. "I studied psychology blah blah blah". If you were living as a rationally sane human being, which we're assuming one of the two of them was. With me so far? Would you not put up some kind of refusal or resistance to the other, under their degree of hoarding, if it weren't to the clinical significance that I think it was? If you, as Shauna, were living with him and knew that it wasn't to the degree that it was mentally problematic for him to discard things. Would you not try and encourage him to get rid of some of the shit that was in their house?

The thing is, and this is going to be a point later on...

Oh, here we go.

But Shauna...

Oh no, wait, you didn't mean post recording. [Laughter]

This is you projecting your feelings, that's what I'm saying.

I just can't get over you telling me to throw my things away.

Shauna wasn't even allowed to leave the house without Nathan, because he was extremely jealous and possessive of her. When they first got together, Nathan was maybe 19 and Shauna was like 13. And Shauna had a very disruptive childhood. So if she thinks that nobody's ever gonna love her, and Nathan takes her on as like: "okay, we'll be together" and they are together, and then that abuse is just gonna be worse and worse. How much say does she have in their home life? I would say probably none.

Did he abuse her?

I would say yes.

I completely understand where you're coming from, but I think everybody has underplayed the statement of hoarding. And I mean to be honest, reflecting on this, it's probably irrelevant like...

Mhmm. [Laughter]

Shut up. The degree of hoarding and OCD isn't relevant to the case at all, I just find it fascinating. We could probably skip past it. Let's just move on to the next point.

Yes.

It's important to know the level of hoarding that was in their house in comparison to the bathroom.

Yes.

Or the bath specifically, that was completely spotless. But for me, that was one of the most interesting points in the case, and I know it shouldn't have been because we were looking at the murder. But it was like, this guy's got issues. Because I don't think it's Shauna, the way that she presented herself in the interviews, and the control she had over herself telling lies like she was the trickster. Shauna was like completely stone-faced throughout the whole thing. She was like: "no, this never happened. No, he never told me anything. No, we live a completely normal life" and then Nathan was like: "nah, I did it.

I don't agree, but we'll get to it.

Oh fucking hell. You never agree with me! Why can't you just decide that I'm right for once?

We'll get to it, we can have this discussion later. Okay?

You're just gonna bring it up as an argument after we've stopped recording. [Laughter]

Okay, so...

Just give me five minutes, I've amused myself. [Laughter]

I've amused myself.

Fyi, I don't believe that for a second, it's the whiskey talking. [Laughter]

Okay, okay, okay, okay. Do the case, I'm ready.

Okay. So the trial begins on the 6th of October. The prosecution lays out the order of events like this: the couple planned the attack, as they had messaged each other beforehand talking about kidnapping a schoolgirl, as Nathan had a sexual interest in underage girls. These text messages had been deleted, but was later restored by the police. Shauna had been underage when the pair started dating. They also had stun guns, handcuffs, tape and masks in their car prior to the events on the 19th. Nathan described his relationship to Becky as strained, as he didn't appreciate her behavior towards his mother. And then I wrote, in parentheses, LIES. Because Becky was perfectly fine with her stepmother, they had a very close relationship. Becky's friend told police that Nathan had told Becky that he was going to murder her, and how he was going to murder her, years before this happened. He claimed in a written confession that he had planned to kidnap her as a plot to scare her straight, as he perceived her behavior as being spoiled. Nathan claimed that his mask had slipped off during the attempted kidnapping, and as his identity had been revealed, he panicked and accidentally killed her. And then I wrote, in parentheses, LIES. The prosecution claimed that the kidnapping plot was sexually motivated because of the previous text messages between Shauna and Nathan. Where they more or less had said several times like: "bring me home school girls" and Shauna had been like: "oh, I saw a really pretty school girl that I thought that I would bump on the head and take home for you blah blah blah".

I've got the direct quote if you want to include that rather than "bump on the head blah blah blah". [Laughter]

Alright.

It was: "very pretty petite girl. Almost knocked her out to bring her home. Lol".

Yeah, which is also quite showing as we're gonna get to... Well we're probably not going to get to it, so let's do it now.

So his police interview before he confessed to her murder, was that he was trying to scare her because he was insulted about the way that he spoke to their mother. Everybody in the family quite clearly knew that he didn't like her. So he said that he wanted to try and scare her, and his tactic was to... While he was masked he was gonna stick her in a suitcase, he was gonna gag her, put her in the back of the car and take her to a wooden area where he was going to scare her and threaten her. And tell her that she needed to show more respect to her parents. So he knocked on her door, went into her room, said: "can I have a quick word"... Actually, while I'm recalling all of this, his whole technique was to disguise that it was him. Right?

Yeah, as he said in his confession, yes.

So he's in a balaclava, or some kind of face covering, so she can't identify visually that it's him?

But he knocked on her door saying: "can I have a quick word", so it's obviously him.

His whole perspective is that she should not... Becky Watts should not know that it is he, Nathan Matthews, that is conducting this abduction. So he puts on a mask, or a balaclava, or whatever, to cover his face so that she can't identify him. And he knocks on her door and then says: "can I have a word with you?".

Yeah.

Now, ponder me this. If your brother knocked on your door and said: "could I have a word with you", you would recognize their voice?

Yes. Which is why I said LIES.

And then you say: "yes, of course, my dear beloved brother. You may enter my private abode and speak upon me thusly", and then some strange, masked, obscured gentleman walks into your bedroom. The fuck you gonna think?

We all know that this is...

"Oh hell no, this is my brother under the mask".

We all know it's her brother under the mask.

Man, what the hell going on there. Your plan is fucking bullshit bruh.

It was never a plan.

What is this bollocks?

That's never the plan, it's just a lie that he told during...

No, his whole original plan that he disclosed to the police, once he realized he'd been caught, is that he wanted...

Was a lie!

No, I don't think it was.

That was never the plan, because she never treated her family bad, they would also say the same. They did also say the same.

What's the point behind the whole abduction?

It's a sexually motivated murder. That was what they were convicted of.

I mean, they were convicted of murder.

Yeah but the prosecution said... [Dog barking] Doggo. The prosecution also said, that this was never a plot to kidnap her and say like: "oh, you treated my mother wrong". Because she never treated her stepmother wrongly, and also because both Nathan and Shauna had a past behavior of trying to get underage school girls to have sex with them. Nathan got caught by his stepfather, Becky's father, with a car full of 12 year olds. He drove home a car full of 12 year old school girls before he met Shauna, who was 13 when they first started dating and he was an adult. He drove them...

Yeah.

And Darren fought him and was like, not fought him physically, but he screamed at him being like: "you're a fucking moron, bring these girls home". So he forced Nathan to drive these 12 year old girls home. He didn't like Becky probably, I would say, because he was jealous of the relationship that Becky had with his own mother.

Yeah. And he made that very clear with the family, that he didn't like her. Like both the parents were well aware that he did not like Becky.

They also asked his mother, his own mother, "do you believe that Nathan accidentally killed Becky?", and she said no. So he wasn't trying to kidnap her to try to scare her straight, that was never a thing.

Okay, fair enough.

He just said that to the police...

Yeah, to try and make a lesser charge.

Yeah.

Yeah, okay.

As I said, after the murder...

"Yes, as I said, I was right the whole time". [Laughter]

After the murder, they had put the body in the boot of their car and then spent hours in the family home afterwards, before going back to their own house. In the bathroom of their house, their own house, they dismembered the body with a circular saw. Nathan claimed that he had done this by himself, and that Shauna had no idea what he was doing, as he had told her the drain pipe was clogged. And then I said again, in parentheses, LIES. Because nobody could have a circular saw in their own house and not hear it, that's impossible.

And also, the fucks the connection with the drainpipe?

Yeah, no, that makes no sense. Nathan was caught on CCTV the day after the murder buying the circular saw, as well as goggles, gloves and face masks. And the couple were also caught on CCTV buying cleaning products to get rid of the evidence in the bathroom the days afterwards after this.

Hint readers, that's why we emphasize the cleanliness of the bath.

Yes.

You're welcome. And by readers, I mean listeners.

After this, the couple put the body parts in bags and boxes, and paid a very large sum of money to a friend of Nathan's to store the bags and boxes in his shed a couple of hundred meters away from Nathan and Shauna's home. Anji claims that Shauna was the brains of the crime, although Shauna wasn't even allowed to step outside the home without Nathan because he was jealous and possessive.

To be fair, having seen the police tapes, I can quite easily see Shauna being the brains behind the whole thing. She seemed so calm and so assured of herself, whereas Nathan, although he seemed relaxed, did have a kind of nervous energy behind him. Whereas Shauna seems so confident in herself, that I would not doubt at all that it was originally her idea to do the whole thing.

I don't agree at all, like...

Oh well, why don't you go shit on your face like Bodil.

I saw the police tapes as well, and Shauna giggles and is nervous the whole time.

I would disagree with that. She looks nervous to start with, but then when you start to see the rest of the first interview, and the second interview, and the third, and however long it goes for, she seems absolutely in control of everything. And even to the point where it's established that the murder was done by Nathan, and possibly her as an accomplice, she's like: "I knew nothing about that. This is the first time I've heard anything about...". Like she seems so in control, that I would say she were the brains behind it. And before you comment, like I know you will, you may have more experience in psychology but I've got more experience in forensic science and therefore, I win. And that's my point. [Laughter]

I don't doubt for one second that Shauna was in on the plan, but Shauna was being controlled in their relationship by Nathan. And that is documented. She wasn't allowed to go outside of the home without Nathan, because he thought that she would do whatever with other guys. He was like: "oh she's trying to sleep with other guys blah blah blah". Nathan was a predator. When they first got together, because he was an adult and she was 13 years old...

No, I get that. I'm not... but also... I'm not... To what extent did she allow that persona to be believed externally so that she could control Nathan?

I don't think she controlled Nathan at all. I think that she didn't know what love was as a 13 year old...

I mean, if she controlled Nathan then maybe she could have gotten him to throw away some of this shit.

That's what I'm saying. Like if she had any kind of say, maybe she would have been like: "don't bring home all the fridges that you were gonna fix up and sell on".

The fridges.

we've got it now fridges well he did

bring home like those kind of stuff and

they just sat around the house

she had no say in their sex

life he was a documented predator

before she met him before he met her

they yeah because of the 12 year olds

if it was that documented with the

police

no was that no that was just hearsay

evidence from his dad

and his mom everybody knew about it they

yeah but you can't say it's documented

if it's not official

well they just assumed

that he would no i get it he was proper

dodge

he was proper dodge and he had

sorry you moosed yourself again

he was prepared

and you're a moose not your immune

it was a moose

no he was he was on his computer

super creep on his computer

there was a lot of underage porn

not child pornography but like

legal age but dressing down

yeah exactly yeah this was

not shawna this was nathan

that's what i'm trying to say

and shauna's dna was found on a face

mask

and on a bag which contained becky's

remains

which conclusively linked her to the

crime

so what i'm trying to do shauna was

not a bystander and she

was not innocent of the crime definitely

an accomplice

yes so she wasn't innocent

in any way but i'm just trying to put it

in perspective

she may not have been guilty of murder

but she was definitely complicit in the

murder

i think she was and i think she should

have

been prosecuted as a murderer but given

her family context the context of her

nation's relationship the context of

nathan

being extremely weird

for a long time i would say

i don't think she was under any

illusions as to what she were doing

i think she knew exactly what they were

doing

i think so too but do i think that

she made nathan do it 100

no no it definitely came from

him yeah and he definitely convinced her

to get on board with it yeah but

did she commit the actual murder

no did she assist

in obscuring the murder

definitely yes i think she might have

been there when the murder happened

and might have helped him do it but i

think

this is nathan's sexual fantasy

i think it was both of their sexual

fantasy

judging by the text messages that were

exchanged between them

but i would 100

say that nathan committed the crime

and that shawna was the accomplice

i don't think she had a direct

role in the murder

yeah but the whole abduction

scare that wasn't even a sexual

like the whole background

to it i think she was completely

involved in

yeah she was 100 aware of

yeah but were her hands the hands that

committed the murder

no no that was something

yeah i think it's 100 correct

that nathan be charged with the murder

and that shawna be charged with

an accomplice and pervert in the course

of justice

and whatever else she was charged with

i think it's right in my nose notes

nathan was saying my notes

notesies nathan was sentenced to a

minimum

term of 33 years

and shauna was sentenced to

17 years in prison both were also

convicted of

conspiracy to kidnap perverting the

course of justice

preventing the lawful burial of a body

and protection of two stun guns which

i'm assuming

is illegal yes yeah

so so go through the charges one by one

slowly

so the first charge conspiracy to kidnap

yeah so that was because

of nathan's confession where he said

they were intending to kidnap her to

scare her

because of the way that she spoke to

and treated their mum no that was

because the prosecution

thought that the plans was to kidnap her

and

sexually assault her and they had the

means to do that

in their car before this happened they

had

handcuffs tape that's what nathan

confessed to

yeah but the prosecution is saying it

was sexually motivated

it wasn't a kidnap plan to scare her

because of her treatment of her parents

that was obviously a lie

they are saying that the plans to kidnap

her

was because they were just because of

the sexual

relations okay fine okay so the next

charge

perverting the course of justice yeah

because they both lied during their

interview process

yeah preventing the lawful burial of a

body

because they hid it in the shed yeah and

wouldn't

disclose to anyone where it was yeah

that's fine

and possession of two stun guns yeah

when she resisted going with them

because you know

when strange people enter your bedroom

and they're like

you come with me you're like um

no no not gonna do that

no his friend and his friend's

girlfriend who had stored the body parts

were also

oh yeah yeah the other ones

there was loads of them jamie ireland

donovan demetrius carl demetrius

and jaden parsons were all

involved in hiding

all of those body parts in their [ __ ]

shed you all deserve to rot in prison

you dirty [ __ ] bastards

i think they saw that it was drugs or

something because they were

definitely knew that it was

something illegal was happening yeah

so do you know what they were actually

charged with

they were charged with perverting the

course of justice

probably aiding and abetting

assisting an offender yeah

aiding and a betting basically yeah so

all four of them

no only two the ones that had

the demetrius the guy who had

the shed and his girlfriend okay

both knew about it like not about what

the

things no but they knew they were

storing

something suspicious yes

i 100 understand why

they got sentenced but i don't think

it's that serious which is probably

reflected

in their personal sentence i think one

of them got

two years the other one got like 16

months

which is understandable because they

knew

that it was illegal in some way but they

thought that it was drugs

but also probably with the news

at the time like this whole find

becky thing on social media went

viral so they would have probably yes

my dick pics so they would have probably

suspected i mean but something

suspicious was happening

yeah and they knew that nathan was her

step brother like they probably thought

that it was drugs

when they first got it but then after

the news

i'm kind of leaning towards that they

figured it out

because you would have to be an idiot

to not figure it out well we don't know

their intelligence levels

they could have been complete [ __ ]

morons

[Laughter]

but i mean like you would have known

even if you had it in your shed

already you would have i mean yeah

your mate comes up to you and is like

hey

can i store this suspicious

black bag full of stuff that you're

not allowed to look at in your shed

and then the next day on the news

they're like ah

teenagers gone missing people like

i might have a peek in that bag

but no either they were completely

trustworthy

of their mate who just turned up with a

bag full of

nondescript items or they were like

yeah this is fishy but you know my

homeboy

he does me a solid so i don't

even think that he was friends with the

guy who put it in

his shed i think that he was friends

with like his brother

who was also charged yeah they were

two demetriuses no donovan

and carl either way whoever

of the demetriuses

decided to store dead body parts

in their shed should have been

suspicious

that was the one that got charged but i

think

that he first talked to his brother

i don't know if this is just my sense of

curiosity

but if someone gave me a really

heavy bag it would have been if it was

yeah if it was body parts so

dead weight of the human body is heavy

it was and someone turns up at your door

with like a double bagged bin liner

and a bunch of boxes and they're like

hey

can i store this in your shed don't

look in it i'll come back for it you'd

be like

i'm gonna have a peek i know i would if

you came round to my house

my flat i don't live in a house and

we're like hey

here's a bag don't look in it i'll come

get it

in like two weeks time i'd be like i'm

looking in that [ __ ] bag

yeah i think most people would yeah yeah

nobody trusts your mate coming around

and being like don't look in this

[ __ ] bag that stinks

of human decay and i'm gonna come get in

a bit

but you know ignore all of the police

reports about this missing person

like a lot of money which would only

peak my interest more yeah

to no way a rational person

per person i've turned into sean connery

my name's james bond

no way a rational person would

have accepted nondescript bin liners

and boxes to store in their shed

or outhouse or water closet

or whatever the [ __ ] kind of cubby hole

they put in

without being suspicious and therefore

monsieur dimitrius

you [ __ ] deserved everything you got

what are you thinking about doing now

going to bed

are you gonna sleep asleep i might watch

another episode

of two weeks to live

are you on the toilet

the bathroom

got a poop coming okay so maybe we

should say goodbye

thank you so much

[Music]

[Laughter]

thank you so much for listening to

midweek murders

we'll see you next week

[Music]

you want to say bye love you

[Music]

bye

you

Topics

• Becky Watts
• Nathan Matthews and Shauna Hoare
• Killer couples
• Familicide
• Forensic science
• fingerprint evidence
• blood evidence
• CCTV
• aiding and abetting
• perverting the course of justice
• police interrogations
• true crime uk
• crime cases uk